I need advice for a new softener

[boywonder]

Here's my situation: I'm done with waterboss, tired of chronically fixing the thing, lasted about 5 years after repairing the valve a half dozen times and replacing the media once. I'm also tired of coming home to find the brine tank overflowed all over the garage floor.

We have municipal water with 12 gpg hardness and unknown iron content..We see a little staining on fixtures but we did have the waterboss resin foul after about 3 years of use. Can other things (ie chlorine) also foul the resin? Our flowrate went to a trickle requiring the resin update.

Our local water quality report is here:

http://www.smwd.com/publications/2008%20Santa%20Margarita%20WQR.pdf

There are two *****s in the house and a washer and dishwasher, 2300 ft2 with 3 baths.

I'm considering a Fleck 5600 or a Clack WS-1 based unit either 24000 or 32000 grain. I am concerned about fouling the resin again, should I consider a fine mesh resin or SST-60? Or a turbulator? Would these be a waste?

I don't recall the waterboss regenerating excessively, so I'm guessing that a 24000 grain unit would probably suffice.

I am a mech engineer and ultra-handy....and the unit is located in the garage so clack-ing drivetrains are probably not a big deal. I like the idea of the 5600 being a mechanical demand system (no circuit boards) but I'm biased..

Can anyone enlighten me on the "special tools" required to service the 5600 series valves? Are they pullers, snap ring pliers, etc?? I understand the Clack valve is ultra easy to service...

I'm hoping for some objective opinions, I'm going to purchase a system from a web-based vendor.

[ion_avenger]

Smart move getting away from the WaterBoss. 5 years is actually pretty good for one of them, so you got your moneys worth.

I don't like Clack valves, they're noisy and are not as well-built as a Fleck valve. I have sold Clacks over the years, but I'm much happier with he quality of the Fleck.

Clack is a copy of the Fleck design, and the "easy to clean" mantra is overblown. The only tools I use to repair 5600, 6700 and 7000 series Fleck valves is a screwdriver and pair of needle-nose pliers. Cage pullers and piston stuffers are available, but nobody uses them.

Go with SST-60 or a macro resin and use a performance enhancer like pro-rescare or pur-gard - stay away from res-up !

[greg-cws]

Waterboss was a good start, but it is a disposable system, very few people get more than 5 years out of them. So great idea to invest in something more robust.

Your comment about the flow slowing to a trickle is symptomatic chlorine damage to the resin, especially since your water report shows an average chlorine level of 1.8ppm. With that in mind, you definitely want to use macroporous resin or at least a 10% x-link gel resin to maximize the resin's lifespan.

You might even want to consider carbon filtration to protect you and the mechanical subsystems in the home from chlorine.

If choosing between Fleck & Clack, I would definitely choose Fleck without hesitation.

My company sells both heads in various markets, and we've definitely had significantly better success with the Fleck product.

The Clack is no more or less easy to service than the fleck, so even though a lot of "online experts" promote the Clack on the basis of serviceability, it is a non-issue.

I'm not a huge fan of the 5600 series though, because of the excessive parts count as compared to its digital brethren. The electronics used on Fleck/Pentair products are robust and very reliable. Invest in a cheap surge protector, and you'll be fine. Have you looked at the Fleck 7000 yet ?

[boywonder]

Thanks for the replies, I'll check out the Fleck 7000 series. I'll also research pur-gard. What about sizing? I do not recall the waterboss regenerating excessively, and on paper a 24000 grain unit is enough for 2 people/dishwasher/washing machine but the 32000 grain units are typically slightly more cash. We have a 2300 ft2 house with 3 baths. Our waterboss is the older, squared off basic unit (I'm presently traveling and do not recall the grain capacity).

If I go with SST-60 resin, does a turbulator provide any additional benefits?

I am relieved to hear that the fleck valves are serviceable without special tools with a little effort.

[boywonder]

What are the main differences between the Fleck 7000 and the 7000SE? I'm assuming that the SE version uses an optical switch instead of a microswitch and has the black faceplate instead of the white faceplate, but these are all guesses on my part. It sounds like the PCB is simpler as well. The reason I ask about the optical vs microswitch is that the service manual shows a microswitch but the spec sheet calls out an optical switch (which is usually more robust than a microswitch due to no contacts or moving parts)

thanks

[greg-cws]

A good sizing formula is as follows:-

(hardness x (people x 150)) x 4

Take the derived number and choose the next largest softner size.

ie. 12 grains of hardness, with 2 people in the home = 14,400 grains, so a 24,000 grain system would be the appropriate choice.

I'm not a turbulator fan, it is heavily touted as being able to do many impressive things, but my practical field experience with it has proven otherwise.

I prefer using the appropriate performance enhancers like pro-rescare or Pur-Gard (Pur-Gard is an Intermountain product) to clean the resin properly and protect the system. Pur-Gard incorporates a chelating agent as well as disinfectants to minimize HPC (Heterotrophic Plate Count bacteria) contamination.




Thanks for the replies, I'll check out the Fleck 7000 series. I'll also research pur-gard. What about sizing? I do not recall the waterboss regenerating excessively, and on paper a 24000 grain unit is enough for 2 people/dishwasher/washing machine but the 32000 grain units are typically slightly more cash. We have a 2300 ft2 house with 3 baths. Our waterboss is the older, squared off basic unit (I'm presently traveling and do not recall the grain capacity).

If I go with SST-60 resin, does a turbulator provide any additional benefits?

I am relieved to hear that the fleck valves are serviceable without special tools with a little effort.

[greg-cws]

All 7000 systems use an optical encoder to observe the movement of the piston. There is an aux. microswitch that is used when incorporating this valve as part of a larger system for interconnection purposes, but is not usually found on residential configurations of this valve.

The optical encoder on the 7000 is far more robust and has a higher resolution than the optical encoder on the Clack WS1. Fleck/Pentair uses metal wheel with cut slots at approx 2mm intervals. The clack uses a reflective array of silver/black stickering at approx 20mm intervals.

"SE" refers to Pentair/Fleck's "Simple Electronic" platform, which is simple, reliable and stable. It is recognizable by the orage/red 7-segment LED display.
SE is used on a number of their valves, and the 7000 has always used SE style electronics. Some resellers try to make their 7000 sound "cooler" by referencing the SE, but it's really a misnomer.
http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/en-us/Products/ResidentialControlValves/Model+7000.htm


The latest version of the 7000 is the 7000 SXT, which has an all new processor, blue backlit display and advance logic. This hasn't been released for resale yet, but will be their best residential control ever.http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/en-us/Products/ResidentialControlValves/Model+7000SXT.htm

7000 covers come in blue, black, and white and are used at the option of the OEM/dealer to provide product/model/brand differentiation.




What are the main differences between the Fleck 7000 and the 7000SE? I'm assuming that the SE version uses an optical switch instead of a microswitch and has the black faceplate instead of the white faceplate, but these are all guesses on my part. It sounds like the PCB is simpler as well. The reason I ask about the optical vs microswitch is that the service manual shows a microswitch but the spec sheet calls out an optical switch (which is usually more robust than a microswitch due to no contacts or moving parts)

thanks

[boywonder]

Thanks Greg:

Thanks for the encoder/microswitch clarification. I'm going for a fleck 7000 valve with 24000 grains and SST-60 resin.

One final question: Are there any programming cycle mods that I should do for using the SST-60 resin? I imagine the 7000 will show up with the default settings.

Thanks again, your input (and ion Avenger's) has been extremely helpful.

[greg-cws]

You're most welcome, happy to help. You made a good choice, the 7000 is a great product. Make sure your vendor provides you with a top basket (distributor).

With SST-60 resin, I like to modify the programming profile to maximize performance.

Once the system arrives, post the following data here and we can build you a customized programming profile:-

1.Influent static water pressure
2.Mineral tank size
3.Brine tank size
4.Exact resin quantity
5.BLFC Brine line flow control rate
6.DLFC Drain line flow control rate

Good luck !

[boywonder]

will do. thanks

[boywonder]

Greg/Avenger:

Do you have any advise/guidelines on the required upstream carbon filtration? Would this be another resin tank with with xx ft3 of carbon and a valve on top? Replaceable "Big blue" cartridge or something else? How much carbon is needed? Does it need to be (can it be) regenerated? Is this typically cost effective vs just replacing the softener resin every few years?

Thanks

[greg-cws]

Avoid cartridges like the plague. Unless deployed in a parallel/triplex flow configuration, they will restrict flow/pressure too much. I also dislike the fact you're continually opening them & changing cartridges, which is a leak liability and pathway for bacterial contamination.

I like using a self-backwashing carbon/KDF filter with a 7000 filter valve, that will automatically backwash on a schedule to minimize bacterial contamination. We add Pur-Gard injection to our carbon filters to periodically disinfect and clean the carbon media.

Remember that carbon does have a limited lifespan, and you should replace the media approx. every 3-5 years, depending on backwash frequency, and whether you have disinfection apparatus.


Cost/benefit ratio can be nebulous on this, since resin isn't particularly expensive to replace, especially where you're performing your own labor.

I think there's a strong case for protecting yourself from chlorine, as well as the carcinogenic byproducts of chlorine. Chlorine also caused damage to all the seals, seats, gaskets & orings on all other appliances, faucets & fixtures in the home so you have a further benefit there in removing the chlorine.

[boywonder]

Got it, thanks. Off to to more research on carbon filters...I'm going to move forward on the softener ASAP.

The o-rings in my spa have disintegrated from over chlorination, so I get the idea........What is the preferred o-ring compound for water systems? Viton, Buna, flourosilicone, etc?

Thanks again

[greg-cws]

Buna-N is the most common, followed by silicone compounds.
Usually only see viton on pumps and storage tanks.

If you want to unleash the inner geek, start researching iodine & molasses numbers on carbon specs. :D

[boywonder]

Well, the softener has arrived; Do I need a gravel bed under the SST-60 media? It appears that the kit did not include gravel.

here's what I've got so far for parameters for programming:

1.Influent static water pressure 50 psi
2.Mineral tank size 8x44
3.Brine tank size 18 dia x 33 high
4.Exact resin quantity .75 ft3
5.BLFC Brine line flow control rate see below
6.DLFC Drain line flow control rate see below


There is a nylon fitting on the valve with a "1.5" magic markered on it; is this BLFC or DLFC?

I'll refine these numbers as I get more into the install.

[boywonder]

BLFC = .125 gpm

Next dumb question: The SS-T60 resin is orange color, and somewhat damp in the bag; the datasheet says it should be clear with solid centers, is this resin actually orange (like me old generic resin?) or do I not have SST-60?

[greg-cws]

Gravel is entirely optional in this case. Your only liability is that you will lose some of your net softening capacity (around 10%), which is not a big deal.

As long as you have a top distributor (basket) on the valve, you could pack another .3ft3 into that tank quite comfortably to give yourself more capacity.

SST-60 resin is a gel-type, and usually orange-brown in color, and quite moist. With the naked eye, I can't tell the difference between SST-60 & standard gel resin....Is the packaging original Purolite packaging ?

Programming Profile
==============

U--1
dFFF
7--3
c-26
H-12
01:00AM
A--7
1-20
2-60
3-10
4-60
5-5
6-10
F-82
cF-0
LF60



Well, the softener has arrived; Do I need a gravel bed under the SST-60 media? It appears that the kit did not include gravel.

here's what I've got so far for parameters for programming:

1.Influent static water pressure 50 psi
2.Mineral tank size 8x44
3.Brine tank size 18 dia x 33 high
4.Exact resin quantity .75 ft3
5.BLFC Brine line flow control rate see below
6.DLFC Drain line flow control rate see below


There is a nylon fitting on the valve with a "1.5" magic markered on it; is this BLFC or DLFC?

I'll refine these numbers as I get more into the install.

[boywonder]

Thanks Greg! The programming info is very much appreciated. I'll post if I run into any new issues.

The purolite is in the orig bag, but it's open since it was a 1 ft3 bag and I only need .75 ft3.

[ion_avenger]

Looks like Greg got you fixed up nicely. BTW, what state do you live in ?

[boywonder]

California.

All systems are presently go, with one final question:

Is 60 minutes for the 4th cycle correct? It seems way high compared to the default settings and the recommended settings provided with the unit.

Thanks again Greg and Avenger.

[greg-cws]

Great question.

The BLFC size as well as the type of resin used prompted that decision.
This will ensure that you never have salty residue after cleaning, and that the bed is properly cleaned.

Enjoy your system !

[boywonder]

Thanks Greg, I'll leave the settings alone, as everything is working fine.