Iron Mitigation with Fleck 7000 [Archive]

dfm

11-12-2007, 10:10 PM

Hi everybody! I have 10ppm plus iron! I currently use chlorine injection, a calcite/corosex tank (Fleck 5600), a centaur carbon tank (Fleck 5600), and a water softener (Fleck 6600), but I still had iron problems. So, I am in the process of adding a MTM tank. I ordered and received a Fleck 7000 for the MTM, but I have had nothing but problems. After extensive problem solving, the seller suggested it may have been shipped with the wrong injector installed. I'll check this weekend. The Fleck 7000 uses orange H clips to hold parts in place and this seemed to me like a great idea on paper, but I've had terrible luck with them. Is there a secret to getting them off? Also I'm wondering how I would schedule the 7000 as it uses day of the week settings and the 6600 uses days elapsed or volume and the 5600s use a 12 day timer! I have an old 5600 I could use for the MTM and just have the three 5600s rotating during the midnight slot and give the 6600 the 2am slot. I'd hate to use the 10pm slot or the 4am slot as I'm an owl and my wife is a lark! Thanks for any advice! dfm

greg-cws

11-12-2007, 11:10 PM

10PPM IS A LOT OF IRON !

The Fleck 7000 is a really nice valve, I have been specifying them for years and never had any problems with them.

The clips do require some finesse...
The important thing is to ensure that you completely depressurize the system (push and hold the cycle button until it begins cleaning & then shut off the water.). Once you're completely depressurized, make sure that the connection is straight (system is nice and level/pumb & pipes are straight) and gently lift the clip by grasping the top section with a pair of pliers or gently levering with a flat-blade screwdriver. The key is GENTLY ! There are a lot of savages out there who manhandle them, break them and hate the valve because of their ineptitude, but if you're gentle and understand the above principles, you'll never have a problem.

Did you get your 7000 with the standard 32mm riser or with the 1" adaptor insert ?

I'm curious about your 7000 valve programming...
Set the time to 12:01 pm and press the UP & DOWN arrows simultaneously for 5 seconds. That will enter programming mode. Write down each setting that is displayed while using the cycle button to advance through them. Post the results here when you get a chance.

What injector did you get with your system ?

Do you have a full programming manual ?

Does your system have a flowmeter with cable on the outlet (left) side ?

What is your pressure ?

Are you using this MTM system with intermittent regeneration (Potassium permanganate) or are you using the chlorine that's already in your water as a continuous regen setup ?

How long are the cleaning cycles on your other tanks and what is their cleaning interval ?

dfm

11-13-2007, 01:54 AM

Yeah, I have lots of iron.

Mmm, Fleck 7000. After literally hours of fiddling with it I couldn

dfm

11-13-2007, 06:39 AM

Hey Greg,
I forgot to ask. Can you tell me what injector should be installed in the Fleck 7000 for an MTM tank? thanks dfm

greg-cws

11-13-2007, 01:09 PM

The top basket will prevent media from being flushed to drain.
In your case, I presume you have 1ft3 of MTM on a 10x47 or 10x54 tank with gravel underbedding, right ? - If that's the case, you really don't need that top basket.

Be sure that the riser fits snugly against the distributor pilot o-ring. The 7000 is buit for high flow rates, so 32mm is the standard distributor size. A special press-fit insert is made to accomodate generic 1" risers. If you have a 1" riser and just the 32mm pilot, you filter won't do anything for you at all.

Give me the entire listing of programming settings and we can customize the profile specifically for your application.
Sinceyou have the flow meter, we can program to uses a 7--3 regeneration profile, which is meter delayed regeneration.
The 7000 can regenerate whenever you like it, you're not limited to specific time windows at all. - Once you get into the programming, you'll notice some similarities to the 6600/6700 firmware.

I really wish thet you had more flow & pressure. It would help you squeeze better performance & longevity out of your equipment. But I guess we work with what we have :)

MTM before the carbon is exactly correct. Periodic regeneration with KMnO4 won't hurt at all - no problems there.

Is your water consistently clear ?

You definitely could use the 5600, but I wouldn't.

Any size injector will work (within reason), you just adjust programming to accomodate for injector orifice size. The gray injector referenced is made out of PVC to be chemically inert to the permanganate.

dfm

11-13-2007, 04:49 PM

-Ha, the noble savage, I almost missed that in the subject line, check.
-No need for top basket, check.
-Must be sure riser fits against o-ring, check.
-Will provide all programming, check.
-Low flow and pressure: I assume my pump limits my flow, but I could increase the settings on my pressure switch?
-MTM with continuous and periodic regeneration, check.
-Water clarity negative: I hope my water will be clear after I get the MTM online. You may recall that if I let a glass of water sit overnight it becomes clear with precipitate at the bottom.
-Use 7000 rather than the 5600: Problem is I can

greg-cws

11-13-2007, 09:13 PM

That shipping damage concerns me.

Will CAI take it back ?

dfm

11-13-2007, 10:42 PM

I ordered the valve from Ohio Pure Water Company. They agreed to accept a return minus 25% if I decide to go that route. They want to know what color injector was installed. I guess I'll see what they say when I'm able to identify the injector. Does is sound as if I have been troubleshooting appropriately? thanks a bunch, dfm

That shipping damage concerns me.

Will CAI take it back ?

greg-cws

11-13-2007, 10:53 PM

You're spot-on on with the troubleshooting logic.

I'm concerned about the shipping damage...
One naturally wonders what other damage could have happened.
Did you notice if the lobe on the cam fully depresses the brine valve plunger during the brine/rinse cycle ?

Did you open the injector cap yet to see if the injector nozzle/throat has anything blocking it ?

ion_avenger

11-14-2007, 01:43 PM

check that injector for a clog. We use 7000's here in southern Cali all the time without any problems. even with low pressure setups.

dfm

11-14-2007, 05:22 PM

Hey thanks ion and Greg for the suggestions. I just checked and there was no blockage of the injector, injector throat, or the little removable screen.

Hey Greg, I did notice that the cams were depressing valves during cycling, but I didn't notice how fully. Good question, but I guess not having any reference I might not know what fully was anyway. The valve is now removed and disassembled.

Oh by the way, the H clips are MUCH easier to remove when ALL pressure is off the valve, doh!

Big money question/answer: the injector is yellow. Is that appropriate?

thanks
dfm

greg-cws

11-14-2007, 07:52 PM

Yellow injector isn't a problem. It just draws slowly and can sometimes plug with debris. I usually spec a larger injector like a #5 to shoot the KMnO4 in faster and minimize plugging.

Do you have the service manual ? - There are some line drawings that show the cam locations and interaction with the brine valve.
See if yours looks the same.

dfm

11-14-2007, 10:05 PM

Yes I do have a service manual. I had a sneaking suspicion that I was going to need to get interested in the brine valve. I'll put the unit through it's paces and see if I can discover anything new. thanks so much, dfm

Yellow injector isn't a problem. It just draws slowly and can sometimes plug with debris. I usually spec a larger injector like a #5 to shoot the KMnO4 in faster and minimize plugging.

Do you have the service manual ? - There are some line drawings that show the cam locations and interaction with the brine valve.
See if yours looks the same.

dfm

11-15-2007, 03:41 PM

I got my MTM tank online today using an old 5600 valve and some new parts.
Everything seems to be working appropriately. I was relieved to see the pot perm draw and refill. I'll be continuing my 7000 diagnostics over the next few days. I'll keep you updated! Thanks dfm

greg-cws

11-15-2007, 10:15 PM

What do you have your brine setting on ?

Since the 5600 interfaced with the riser, your riser is definitely 1", so be sure your 7000 has that 1" insert !

Post some water test results, I'm curious...

dfm

11-16-2007, 04:25 PM

I'll post some testing results this weekend.

Hey Greg, by "What do you have your brine setting on ?" do you mean how often do I have the 5600 set to regenerate? The answer to that question is I haven't set it yet. I hope to replace the 5600 with the 7000 if I can get it fixed. Do you have a suggestion for the 5600 regeneration frequency for the mean time?

I checked the 7000 and a 1" insert is present.

dfm out

greg-cws

11-16-2007, 06:06 PM

The 5600 series has an adjustable brine-fill cam.

Open the back cover and look on the brine cam to see a little white crescent shaped protruberance that has markings on it. It will either be 3-18lbs, 6-36lbs, or just calibrated in minutes of fill time. You need a very small amount of KmNO4 to regenerate properly. IIRC you have 1ft3 of MTM and a .5gpm refill rate. Is that right ?

If so, you only need to fill for about 4 minutes at 0.5gpm for a net of about 2 gallons. - Does your Potassium Permanganate tank have a deck in it ?

1 ft3 of MTM can remove approx. 10,000ppm of iron/ft3 in intermittent regen mode (about every 1,000 gallons based on your iron level of 10ppm).

In continuous mode with periodic KMnO4 regen, I would try regenerating after every 2,000 gallons to begin with and see if the effluent iron level stays at 0 for at least 10 days. If so, then add 10% to the interval and run for 10 days again. Perform further iterations untill you start bleeding iron and back it off 20% from the setting that allowed breakthrough of iron into the effluent. - Does that make sense ?

Since you can't always guarantee your chlorine concentration, you'll need to apply a little trial & error - engineering here. :) Always err on the side of caution though. Rather use a little extra Pot. Perm than damage the bed of MTM.

dfm

11-17-2007, 07:06 PM

I do have a "brine cam" and I set it for the lowest setting of 4 min. When observing it seems the pot perm shutoff valve kicks on after the fluid level is an inch or two above the deck. I hope to get the 7000 working soon so this will be a moot point, but I think the 5600 settings are as you suggest. I do have 1ft3 of MTM at .5gpm refill.

As I understand the concentration of pot perm cannot be too high as the upper limit is controlled by the "saturation point" of the water. So really we're talking about how frequently the MTM is bathed in pot perm. And erring on the side of caution means regenerating or bathing the MTM in pot perm more frequently rather than less frequently? Too many regenerations of the MTM is not harmful, just wasteful? If I'm up to speed then I think you have estimated about right for my home at 10 days being close to 2000 gallons. Maybe I'll have the 7000 online in about 10 days and I can really get to work.

I'll try to do some testing tomorrow. It seems as if my water is less "slippery" (pH change?) with the MTM online. I'll let you know!

Thanks so much for the "kick butt" answer! dfm

The 5600 series has an adjustable brine-fill cam.

Open the back cover and look on the brine cam to see a little white crescent shaped protruberance that has markings on it. It will either be 3-18lbs, 6-36lbs, or just calibrated in minutes of fill time. You need a very small amount of KmNO4 to regenerate properly. IIRC you have 1ft3 of MTM and a .5gpm refill rate. Is that right ?

If so, you only need to fill for about 4 minutes at 0.5gpm for a net of about 2 gallons. - Does your Potassium Permanganate tank have a deck in it ?

1 ft3 of MTM can remove approx. 10,000ppm of iron/ft3 in intermittent regen mode (about every 1,000 gallons based on your iron level of 10ppm).

In continuous mode with periodic KMnO4 regen, I would try regenerating after every 2,000 gallons to begin with and see if the effluent iron level stays at 0 for at least 10 days. If so, then add 10% to the interval and run for 10 days again. Perform further iterations untill you start bleeding iron and back it off 20% from the setting that allowed breakthrough of iron into the effluent. - Does that make sense ?

Since you can't always guarantee your chlorine concentration, you'll need to apply a little trial & error - engineering here. :) Always err on the side of caution though. Rather use a little extra Pot. Perm than damage the bed of MTM.

dfm

11-18-2007, 06:13 PM

My 5-in1 test strips reveal:
A pH of 8+
Total Alkalinity of 240 ppm (there's definitely some blue there suggesting 180+)
Total Hardness of about 0
And no total or free chlorine

A Hach Total Iron test strip result of 0 ppm

A phenol red test reveals a pH of 8+

I also posted previously about my brine setting.

I'll keep you updated on my progress in getting the 7000 online.

thanks
dfm

greg-cws

11-19-2007, 09:51 AM

Good update. Keep a close eye on your household water and observe if you get any color back at all.

dfm

11-20-2007, 01:22 PM

I received my replacement injector for my Fleck 7000 today.

The all yellow injector on the left was what was originally installed. It has a translucent ball in the bottom.

The replacement injector on the right, yellow and red, is different in color, of course, but is most different in that it has the white insert in the bottom that appears to immobilize the ball.

I'm looking forward to getting the 7000 online but am somewhat hesitant to dive back in without some assurance that this injector replacement will solve my problem of the valve not drawing during the "brine step".

Could this new injector solve my problem?

Thanks for any advice. dfm

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4047/injectorskw1.jpg

greg-cws

11-20-2007, 10:34 PM

There are only two guarantees in life - Death & taxes :)

The injector is still the most likely culprit, so it't definitely worth attacking.

dfm

12-01-2007, 01:06 PM

Hey Greg,

I just successfully installed my Fleck 7000 on my MTM tank. The 5600 has been working well and it will be nice to keep as a backup. My water has been crystal clear. Wow has it been nice. The MTM you suggested seems to have been the final (hopefully) piece in the puzzle.

Are the factory dF settings of 10 min backwash, 60 brine draw, 5 2nd backwash, 10 rapid rinse, 12 min refill appropriate (I understand the refill could be shortened significantly as the tank reaches its shutoff quickly, but are the other settings okay?

Also, just so I'm clear, regenerating the MTM INfrequently could damage the media, right? I'd like to err on the side of regenerating more frequently as I assume the only loss is in Pot Perm? Regenerating too frequently wouldn't harm the MTM I assume? I remember the information you gave me on regenerating MTM, I just wanted to be sure on that point.

I have chlorinated water flowing into the MTM tank, a 1" riser, with flow meter, about 35-55psi, a white injector (not one of the two pictured below, they sent me a third), I have a programming manual, a .25 BLFC they sent me, and a DLFC with 120 79 F written on it.

Thanks so much. I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving.

There are only two guarantees in life - Death & taxes :)

The injector is still the most likely culprit, so it't definitely worth attacking.

greg-cws

12-02-2007, 01:23 PM

Crystal clear water, that's something to be thankful for :) - You just made my day. I really get excited to see a DIY'er like you catching the water bug !

It's incredibly fulfilling to be able to take dirty water and make it clean, quite an empowering feeling, isn't it ?

Change those default settings, since we're using this as an iron filter, not a softener.

Cycle 1 - 10
Cycle 2 - 45
Cycle 3 - 10
Cycle 4 - 10
Cycle 5 - 10 (you have a 0.25gpm BLFC)

INfrequent regeneration will indeed damage the MTM media, so you're exactly right, rather more often than less often here.

Once you're running stable for a week or two, you could do a cost/benefit analysis on chlorine consumption -vs- MTM to see the breakpoints on the economic efficiency of either continuing to chlorinate at the same levels with periodic permanganate regen, or to reduce the chlorination and increase the pot. perm. regeneration frequency.

Start saving you pennies, you need an ultrafilter next :D !

Hey Greg,

I just successfully installed my Fleck 7000 on my MTM tank. The 5600 has been working well and it will be nice to keep as a backup. My water has been crystal clear. Wow has it been nice. The MTM you suggested seems to have been the final (hopefully) piece in the puzzle.

Are the factory dF settings of 10 min backwash, 60 brine draw, 5 2nd backwash, 10 rapid rinse, 12 min refill appropriate (I understand the refill could be shortened significantly as the tank reaches its shutoff quickly, but are the other settings okay?

Also, just so I'm clear, regenerating the MTM INfrequently could damage the media, right? I'd like to err on the side of regenerating more frequently as I assume the only loss is in Pot Perm? Regenerating too frequently wouldn't harm the MTM I assume? I remember the information you gave me on regenerating MTM, I just wanted to be sure on that point.

I have chlorinated water flowing into the MTM tank, a 1" riser, with flow meter, about 35-55psi, a white injector (not one of the two pictured below, they sent me a third), I have a programming manual, a .25 BLFC they sent me, and a DLFC with 120 79 F written on it.

Thanks so much. I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving.

dfm

12-03-2007, 05:46 PM

Thanks for the settings Greg.
When you say I need an ultrafilter, are you talking about something incorporating a Dizzer 3000 or are you yanking my chain?:)

greg-cws

12-04-2007, 06:00 PM

A bit of both ~ Since water treatment is your new hobby, you might as well start planning for the next toy. :D

Thanks for the settings Greg.
When you say I need an ultrafilter, are you talking about something incorporating a Dizzer 3000 or are you yanking my chain?:)

dfm

12-04-2007, 09:27 PM

As long as my wife is not reading over my shoulder! I suppose there could be less useful toys I could be pursuing. At least she's getting some nice water out of the hobby! Happy Holidays! dfm

A bit of both ~ Since water treatment is your new hobby, you might as well start planning for the next toy. :D

dfm

12-18-2007, 11:44 AM

Hi Greg and Everybody,

I had a MTM regeneration the night before last and my water has not been crystal clear since. It looks a bit rusty. I'm thinking I should decrease the number of gallons between regenerations or increase the regeneration settings. I had the hardness setting for the Fleck 7000 valve on my MTM tank set at 15 and the capacity at 24 and the regeneration settings at 10/45/10/10/10. Would you lean toward tweaking the volume or settings or both?

You may remember the image I sent of my two 40 gallon retention tanks and my 47 gallon pressure tank. I assume this works out to be around 100 gallons of retention. My well pump maximally kicks out 8 gpm. Do you think I'm doing okay with this amount of retention volume or should I consider adding another 40 gallon tank?

Thanks for any advice!
dfm

greg-cws

12-18-2007, 10:33 PM

Let's drop the capacity 10% and increase the backwash by 10 minutes to see what happens.

have you done any before/after testing lately ?

greg-cws

02-19-2008, 10:05 PM

dfm-

What's the latest, is everything working properly ?

dfm

03-04-2008, 08:46 PM

Hey Greg! Thanks for asking.
I've been experimenting with not thinking much about my water for the past couple of months. I've been pretty naughty as I've not been testing. I have been making sure my salt, pot perm, and chlorine levels all stay filled. My water stopped being slippery about a month after I added my Corosex. If your memory is anything like mine you may not remember my story. In a nutshell I have lots of iron and I added a MTM tank and some corosex to my calcite tank after extensive consultion with you. :D

Anyway, like I said my water ceased being slippery and I assumed that my Corosex had balled up and I just wasn't getting enough surface area. Tonight though. I noticed I have a slow drip from the backwash line of my Fleck 5600 Calcite/Corosex tank. I remember a couple of years back I repeatedly had this problem with my Centaur carbon tank and I repeatedly disassembled the valve and that would fix it temporarily. I eventually installed a riser basket and the problem stopped happening.

I

greg-cws

03-04-2008, 10:54 PM

Good to hear things are generally working well.

I think your diagnosis is correct. The most likely culprit could be material (corosex) between the seals & piston.

A top distributor basket wouldn't hurt anything at all - go for it.

When you rebuild the valve, check the piston for scoring - if there's any sign on scoring, replace the piston also.

dfm

03-27-2008, 01:10 PM

Hey Greg, I disassembled my 5600 valve, cleaned everything, and put it back together. My water is again looking really nice. My pH is about 7.5, very clear, and somewhat slippery. What is it about having the leak to the backwash line that is so bad? When I have such a leak it seems like everything goes to hell. thanks dfm

Good to hear things are generally working well.

I think your diagnosis is correct. The most likely culprit could be material (corosex) between the seals & piston.

A top distributor basket wouldn't hurt anything at all - go for it.

When you rebuild the valve, check the piston for scoring - if there's any sign on scoring, replace the piston also.

greg-cws

03-30-2008, 02:43 AM

Good Job !

Debris between the piston and a seal will cause bleedthrough of raw water into unpredictable places. The lands (lobes) and grooves on the piston control routing of water flow as the piston moves between the seals.
Ant interruption of the planned flowpath can cause catastrophic failure.

If a seal or spacer is damaged, you can have the same unpredictable results.

That is the inherent weakness of the piston,seal & spacer design.
All Fleck valves and the Clack valve (Clack is a copy of the Fleck) are affected by this.

Thankfully it doesn't happen too often. and it is pretty easy to fix - disassemble, clean & reassemble. OR replace seals & spacers, OR replace piston seals, & spacers. We only replace the piston if it gets scratched.

In your case, as media escapes the tank, the freeboard will increase and reduce the likelyhood of media ingress into the valve; and of course if you add the top distributor basket, the problem should dissapear completely.

dfm

04-10-2008, 08:26 PM

Well I'm embarrassed to say that I procrastinated and didn't get a riser basket for my corosex/calcite tank. After cleaning the valve, I had water for two or three weeks that was perfect. Now it's looking a little murky brown again. Live and learn. I'll clean the valve and get a basket and see if it clears up.

Anyway, we've been getting torrential rains for two or three weeks here in Arkansas. I'd mentioned my water woes to a buddy of mine and he replied : "Do you think your water is brown because the daily storms are recharging the well/aquifer too rapidly?"
I'd discussed this issue before with a friend of mine who thought that (assuming you didn't have a problem with drainage into your well) it was not a reasonable supposition. He suggested that water takes a very long time to move to the aquifer from the surface.

My system should be sufficient to handle any reasonable variation in my "water in", so I think I'm really just wanting to pick your brain.

Any thoughts you can share on monsoon rains affecting well water quality?

I hope you and yours are well.
Thanks so much for any thoughts.
dfm

Good Job !

Debris between the piston and a seal will cause bleedthrough of raw water into unpredictable places. The lands (lobes) and grooves on the piston control routing of water flow as the piston moves between the seals.
Ant interruption of the planned flowpath can cause catastrophic failure.

If a seal or spacer is damaged, you can have the same unpredictable results.

That is the inherent weakness of the piston,seal & spacer design.
All Fleck valves and the Clack valve (Clack is a copy of the Fleck) are affected by this.

Thankfully it doesn't happen too often. and it is pretty easy to fix - disassemble, clean & reassemble. OR replace seals & spacers, OR replace piston seals, & spacers. We only replace the piston if it gets scratched.

In your case, as media escapes the tank, the freeboard will increase and reduce the likelyhood of media ingress into the valve; and of course if you add the top distributor basket, the problem should dissapear completely.

greg-cws

04-11-2008, 10:40 PM

Heavy rains can sometimes have an effect if the well is very shallow or if fissures in the ground allow direct passage of surface water to the well.

Without those two conditions, changes in groundwater are usually slow, unless there a serious anomaly

How deep is your well ?
Do you have any kind of exclusionary zone around the well to protect it ?

The murky brown could also be breakthrough of iron or other contaminants from the iron filter.

The next time you see brown water inside the house, take a sample of untreated water & compare it.

greg-cws

04-11-2008, 10:40 PM

dfm

08-05-2009, 10:49 PM

Hey Greg! I've had a year and three months of great water thanks to you!
I thought I'd check in with an update.

Unfortunately, my water suddenly got pretty brown last week and I noticed tell-tale condensate on the 5600 backwash pipe of my calcite/corosex tank suggesting a seals problem. Cleaning didn't do the job so I replaced the seals and piston (I wonder if my chlorine from injection deteriorates the seals over time. I know I have to replace my supposedly chlorine resistant toilet flappers every year or so as I use bleach tablets in the back tanks.). I had forgotten how easily the dial on the 5600 is supposed to turn! It had become very difficult to turn manually, but so gradually I'd forgotten how it was supposed to be. And the piston rod assembly had worn a deep grove in the main plastic gear shaft as it struggled to operate! Wow. In any case, I'm still striving to get back to crystal clear water. I'm hoping of few automatic and manual back washes of my tanks will restore order. I'll update again soon. Reading over these posts reminds me of the fantastic help you gave me as I setup my system. If you ever need a testimonial, just let me know!

Heavy rains can sometimes have an effect if the well is very shallow or if fissures in the ground allow direct passage of surface water to the well.

Without those two conditions, changes in groundwater are usually slow, unless there a serious anomaly

How deep is your well ?
Do you have any kind of exclusionary zone around the well to protect it ?

The murky brown could also be breakthrough of iron or other contaminants from the iron filter.

The next time you see brown water inside the house, take a sample of untreated water & compare it.

greg-cws

08-06-2009, 11:16 AM

welcome back! - Thanks for the kind words, I'm so glad that your configuration has worked well.

While living in the country is fun, the sad thing is that you become your own water utility and need to be constantly vigilant as the water chemistry fluctuates.

Chlorine will definitely degrade the seals over time. What is your free chlorine residual before that pH neutralizer?

Post some pics of your setup when you get a chance, it would be fun to see what it all looks like now.

dfm

08-06-2009, 01:06 PM

Thanks so much for the reply Greg! You're right about living in the country, my wife and friends often refer to the crawlspace as the "local" water company. I realized how valuable having a record of previous problem solving is so I've started a blog here: http://mywaterfiltration.blogspot.com/ . I took some pics today and posted them a few minutes ago. If you think any of the pics would we useful to show how not to do something, please borrow them or I can post them here.

I'll measure my chlorine residual right away. I should have while I was down there. I do have a Hach test strip for it if I'm not mistaken, as well as dry, I think. In any case, I replace my Centaur Carbon every 12-18 months and my MTM tank regenerates from Pot Perm as well as the chlorine, so I must admit I treat the chlorine injection rather haphazardly. As long as there is a decent water/bleach mixture in the tank I don't give it much thought. Point being my residual free chlorine probably varies wildly. That's why I so value your thoughts though, always scientific!

welcome back! - Thanks for the kind words, I'm so glad that your configuration has worked well.

While living in the country is fun, the sad thing is that you become your own water utility and need to be constantly vigilant as the water chemistry fluctuates.

Chlorine will definitely degrade the seals over time. What is your free chlorine residual before that pH neutralizer?

Post some pics of your setup when you get a chance, it would be fun to see what it all looks like now.

greg-cws

08-10-2009, 12:41 PM

I like your blog. There are a lot of people struggling with the same issues that you have in dealing with rural well water. Iron is one of the most abundant elements on the earth's crust, so it is one of the most contaminants that people see in their wells.

I also browsed over to your aquatica blogs and I really like the one at http://fwaquarium.blogspot.com/ .

What are you doing to treat your aquarium water?

dfm

08-10-2009, 01:26 PM

Hi Greg,
I started the water blog mostly as a place to store notes and pictures for future reference, but I think you are correct in that documenting my story could help others. I remember some "water experts" being so put-off by the amount of iron in my water they didn't even want to talk to me. I will work to organize that blog in the coming days. Also, I will feature a link to this forum and your business prominently. :)

Regarding the planted aquarium blog, the water from my tap goes straight into the aquarium. It's what I use for cooking, washing, etc. It's treated with the system I've described with conditioners or additives! I make 20% partial water changes every 2-3 days. I do make sure and run an air stone whenever I replace water as I assume the well water might still be saturated with some unwanted gases. CO2 is not so bad (I actually add that to the tank artificially to boost the plants). The aquarium is a cool tribute to the water quality!:D

There are some pretty amazing and helpful serious science folks interested in this niche hobby. The planted tank forums and the aquatic plant central forums are great places to start (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/index.php and http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/). Many of these folks will happily send anyone free plants for the cost of shipping only.

I like your blog. There are a lot of people struggling with the same issues that you have in dealing with rural well water. Iron is one of the most abundant elements on the earth's crust, so it is one of the most contaminants that people see in their wells.

I also browsed over to your aquatica blogs and I really like the one at http://fwaquarium.blogspot.com/ .

What are you doing to treat your aquarium water?

dfm

08-10-2009, 01:32 PM

That's:
"It's treated with the system I've described with NO conditioners or additives!"
I tried to edit, but must have missed the window to do so.

dfm

08-14-2009, 02:49 PM

Hey Greg,
I'd like to order some Pur-Guard if you can fix me up. I've been drip feeding Res-Up for a year or so, but I'm about out and I'd like to switch to Pur-Gard.

thanks David

greg-cws

08-17-2009, 09:20 PM

Call my Utah office 1-800-454-3429

Ask for Alisa, she'll hook you up with special pricing :)

dfm

09-22-2009, 10:07 PM

Thanks Greg I received my Pur-Guard. I'm looking forward to using it.
A couple of months ago I allowed my calcite/corosex tank to run for at least a couple of weeks with a leak such that I was discharging water out the backwash line. My water quality decreased but I tried not to worry about it. This was a mistake. I'm struggling to get my system functioning optimally again. I'm still experiencing some iron bleed through with color and taste not ideal. Immediately after a softener regen it's less than 1ppm iron, but not back to the way it used to be and seems to deteriorate in quality until another regen.
a) I replaced my piston seals and spacers for my calcite/corosex Fleck 5600 and there have been no more leaks. I also refilled the tank with 1/2 cubic foot of calcite and about 10% corosex.
b) I have manually regenerated my Fleck 7000 MTM tank several times and confirmed Pot Perm is present and being drained and refilled. Settings are:
Cycle 1 - 10
Cycle 2 - 45
Cycle 3 - 10
Cycle 4 - 10
Cycle 5 - 10 (I have a 0.25gpm BLFC)
(Fleck 7000 valve on my MTM tank set at 15 and the capacity at 24).
c) I replaced my 1/2 cubic foot of Centaur Carbon in my Fleck 5600 tank. Unfortunately the bag was not sealed and this carbon could be anything.
d) I have manually regenerated my Fleck 6600 containing water softening resin several times and confirmed brine draw and presence of salt upon each regeneration. I've used two acid containing products to "clean" the resin.
e) I have confirmed chlorine present and injection system working.
Problem solving, my thoughts:
a) Water conditions could have changed. But, I assume 10ppm plus iron already.
b) Something could still be broken, but everything seems to be cycling appropriately.
c) I could have severely fouled my MTM or softening resin or damaged the softening resin attempting to clean it.
d) The carbon could be something other than Centaur Carbon and this is actually making a difference.
Currently I'm focusing on confirming the MTM tank is functioning well. I'm regenerating and observing the output bypassing the carbon and softening resin. Should I expect the water to be free of purple color? I just manually regened and the water looked purple and rusty. I just manually regened again skipping steps one and two and the water surged very dark a couple of times and then appeared somewhat purple and rusty. A third manual regen skipping steps one an two again yields water somewhat purple and rusty. Another full regen and the water yields a couple of very dark rusty waves and then stabilizes to light purple after several minutes of water flow. I put the carbon online and test pH of 6.5, Total Alkalinity of about 120-150, Total Hardness of about 120, and no detectable chlorine. Iron, about .6 to 1 ppm. Of course at this point I may not be getting any benefit from chlorine and retention with all this water flow. With softener back online (about 600 gallons left before regen) I'm getting .15ppm iron, pH still low, 6.2 to 6.8, Total Alkalinity 100, Total Hardness 50.
Any hunches? Perhaps I'm making my way slowly but surely back to normal or am I missing something? thanks David

greg-cws

09-23-2009, 08:58 AM

Interesting...

Try one quick procedure before we go any further with it:

1. Fill the permanganate tank with 2 gallons of water
2. Allow water to stand for 5 minutes to create a permanganate solution
3. Initiate a regeneration on the MTM system and allow the system to suck all the permanganate solution from the tank (about 10 minutes)
4. Bypass iron filter
5. Keep system bypassed for 1 hour, allowing 1 hour of permanganate contact time with the MTM media
6. Fill permanganate tank with 2 gallons of water
7. Place iron filter online (still full of permanganate)
8. Regenerate iron filter again, allowing it to complete a regeneration all on its own

Let us know if you post-iron filter iron level decreases at all or if it stays the same

dfm

09-23-2009, 03:52 PM

I'll try to do this tomorrow Greg! Thanks!
As a note, I instructed the softener to regenerate overnight even though it still had 600 gallons left to go (not sure if calcite or carbon regenerated also). This afternoon, after two morning showers, I ran 25 gallons through and then tested .6ppm iron. Harumph. Hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow to follow your instructions. I'm starting to trend from annoyed to interested, so that's a plus! It's annoying when things aren't working right, but it starts getting interesting again if one can push through. I'll report back! Thanks so much! David

dfm

09-26-2009, 10:18 AM

Ok, I'm performing the suggested "procedure" now, cleaning/renewal. Before treating the MTM I'm testing between .6 and 1 ppm with the carbon and water softener offline. That's with chlorine and MTM treatment. It took 19 minutes to bring the fluid level in the PotPerm tank down to the deck and seven more minutes to drain the tank. The water level was right about deck level and I added two gallon jugs of water. Not sure if relevant, but that's 26 total minutes to drain. The MTM tank is now offline and "soaking". I'll report back a bit later with more results!

I'll try to do this tomorrow Greg! Thanks!
As a note, I instructed the softener to regenerate overnight even though it still had 600 gallons left to go (not sure if calcite or carbon regenerated also). This afternoon, after two morning showers, I ran 25 gallons through and then tested .6ppm iron. Harumph. Hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow to follow your instructions. I'm starting to trend from annoyed to interested, so that's a plus! It's annoying when things aren't working right, but it starts getting interesting again if one can push through. I'll report back! Thanks so much! David

dfm

09-26-2009, 11:58 PM

My last message might not have been clear. To reiterate I was getting .6 to 1 ppm iron after the water passed through the MTM, but without carbon or softener.

I executed steps 1-8 of the suggested procedure on the MTM and the water would not clear so I ran stages 3&4 (10 min each) of a regen cycle twice. And then ran about 80 gallons of water through and the water post MTM tank continues to be well above 1ppm iron. I waited about five hours and ran 20 or so gallons through and the water post MTM and the water continues to be well above the 1ppm iron level. I set the MTM tank to regenerate again overnight. I'll test again tomorrow.

dfm

09-27-2009, 05:41 PM

Last night carbon regenerated and MTM did a standard regeneration. Water still reading post MTM at 1ppm iron or more. Might it be ok to replace the MTM at this point?

greg-cws

09-28-2009, 11:36 PM

It certainly sounds like the media has lost it's useful life, rebedding is definitely a viable option now. I'd also replace your carbon while you're at it.

Once we've got the iron under control, we can see about rescuing the softener :)

ion_avenger

09-29-2009, 03:30 AM

Have u thought about trying the WaterDOG?

www.ironkiller.com

dfm

09-29-2009, 07:43 AM

I have read about this technology via a link I ran across on one of Greg's pages. It might be in my future! I'd like to get the system I have back online, but I imagine I'll be asking questions about this product (esp regarding any mineral buildup on the reaction plates?). Thanks for the heads up!

Have u thought about trying the WaterDOG?

www.ironkiller.com

greg-cws

09-30-2009, 09:52 AM

The DOG is definitely a legitimate option for dfm's water, but I think we need to get all the other equipment working properly before he dives into anything else :)

dfm

10-10-2009, 01:49 PM

Alright, I'm confused.
I'm rebedding all my tanks (calcite/corosex, MTM, carbon, softening resin; in that order).
My calcite and carbon bags were brand name 1/2 cubic foot.
My MTM and softening resin were not in brand name bags and I notice on the website of my supplier that the Clack MTM and the Purolite softening resin come in 1 cubit foot bags. I could have sworn I've seen those bags. I only ordered 1/2 cubic foot of each. Am I supposed to be using 1 cubic foot? My four tanks are all 10x47 all with 1" riser tubes.
Again I ordered 1/2 cubic foot of calcite, MTM, carbon, and resin. Should I be using 1 cubic foot of any of these? thanks! David

dfm

10-10-2009, 04:21 PM

Gee whiz, I'm glad I started the blog, I just need to update it.
So I've been thinking and I'm sure I ordered too little MTM.
I've used 1 cubic foot in the past.
I'm guessing 1 cubic foot for the softening resin as well.
Pretty sure about 1/2 cubic foot of carbon.
What about my 95% calcite 5% cororsex mixture. I have 1/2 cubic foot in there now, should I add another 1/2. Thanks!

Alright, I'm confused.
I'm rebedding all my tanks (calcite/corosex, MTM, carbon, softening resin; in that order).
My calcite and carbon bags were brand name 1/2 cubic foot.
My MTM and softening resin were not in brand name bags and I notice on the website of my supplier that the Clack MTM and the Purolite softening resin come in 1 cubit foot bags. I could have sworn I've seen those bags. I only ordered 1/2 cubic foot of each. Am I supposed to be using 1 cubic foot? My four tanks are all 10x47 all with 1" riser tubes.
Again I ordered 1/2 cubic foot of calcite, MTM, carbon, and resin. Should I be using 1 cubic foot of any of these? thanks! David

greg-cws

10-11-2009, 09:42 PM

Definitely 1 cubic foot wherever you can. Those 10x47 tanks will handle 1ft3 and allow for an appropriate media contact time.

If you have a top basket, you could comfortably fill a 10x47 tank with 1.5 cubic foot of resin.

dfm

10-14-2009, 08:43 PM

Hey thanks so much for the reply Greg. I will go with 1.5 cubic foot of resin.
I will have 1.5 cubic feet of MTM on hand. I have a fine mesh riser and top basket on this tank. Could I go with 1.5 cubic feet of MTM or should I just save the extra half cubic foot of MTM?
Thanks!
David

Definitely 1 cubic foot wherever you can. Those 10x47 tanks will handle 1ft3 and allow for an appropriate media contact time.

If you have a top basket, you could comfortably fill a 10x47 tank with 1.5 cubic foot of resin.

dfm

10-18-2009, 04:39 PM

I now have 1 cubic foot of clacite/corosex, 1.5 cubic feet of MTM, and 1.3 cubic feet of resin.
All new. Have a cubic foot of Centaur carbon on hand.
I hope the 1.5 cubic feet of MTM is ok, I do have a fine mesh top basket.
One observation today:
I have a Fleck 6600 downflow on the resin tank.
I noticed that during stage one (backwash, set to ten minutes), the backwash is vigorous for the first 60 seconds, but then the flow reduces by about 80% for the remaining 9 minutes. Is this typical for this model? All the other steps seem to cycle and run as expected.
thanks! David

Hey thanks so much for the reply Greg. I will go with 1.5 cubic foot of resin.
I will have 1.5 cubic feet of MTM on hand. I have a fine mesh riser and top basket on this tank. Could I go with 1.5 cubic feet of MTM or should I just save the extra half cubic foot of MTM?
Thanks!
David

greg-cws

10-19-2009, 12:38 PM

That kind of declining backwash velocity is usually media plugging an upper basket, or the well tank emptying and the pump not keeping up.

Since your rapid rinse seems to be behaving, I would suspect the basket.
What kind of basket do you have?

dfm

10-19-2009, 05:35 PM

Both of those sound like logical possibilities.http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/files/images/product_thumbnail/d_1250.jpg
Now that I know the behavior is not typical I'll have to run another manual cycle and really watch/listen. I have a gage at the pressure tank and I'm fairly sure pressure is stable. It seems like the "cam" is overrunning its proper position. I might take the valve off and run it such that I can watch what happens. I'll also back light the tank and look at bed expansion.
BTW, my water is loooking sooooo good. I drained my water heater and did my best to flush it, but the hot is not yet perfect. I may have to flush it again, but the water out of the filtration system is super nice. I'll likely scientifically test it in a couple of days, but the ole sensory tests say A+. BTW BTW (sortof like pps) you think 1.5 MTM in a 10x47 tank is ok?
dm

That kind of declining backwash velocity is usually media plugging an upper basket, or the well tank emptying and the pump not keeping up.

Since your rapid rinse seems to be behaving, I would suspect the basket.
What kind of basket do you have?

dfm

10-19-2009, 05:59 PM

ppps You were correct sir. Back lighting revealed the backwash rate dropped dramatically as the bed expanded up to the top basket. You can see a pic of the "standard" basket I have installed in previous post.
Would a fine mesh basket help?
Thanks!
David

Both of those sound like logical possibilities.http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/files/images/product_thumbnail/d_1250.jpg
Now that I know the behavior is not typical I'll have to run another manual cycle and really watch/listen. I have a gage at the pressure tank and I'm fairly sure pressure is stable. It seems like the "cam" is overrunning its proper position. I might take the valve off and run it such that I can watch what happens. I'll also back light the tank and look at bed expansion.
BTW, my water is loooking sooooo good. I drained my water heater and did my best to flush it, but the hot is not yet perfect. I may have to flush it again, but the water out of the filtration system is super nice. I'll likely scientifically test it in a couple of days, but the ole sensory tests say A+. BTW BTW (sortof like pps) you think 1.5 MTM in a 10x47 tank is ok?
dm

dfm

10-19-2009, 06:02 PM

Final note:
Purolite SST 60 High Efficiency resin installed at 1.3 or so cubic feet. Looks like maybe 18 inches or so free space before bed expansion, I'd have to measure to be sure.
Thanks!
David

ppps You were correct sir. Back lighting revealed the backwash rate dropped dramatically as the bed expanded up to the top basket. You can see a pic of the "standard" basket I have installed in previous post.
Would a fine mesh basket help?
Thanks!
David

greg-cws

10-20-2009, 08:52 AM

Fine mesh basket won't help with the bed occluding the top distributor.

Two questions:

Do you have gravel underbedding at all in the softener?
What is the BWFC (Backwash Flow Control) rate of the softener valve?

greg-cws

10-20-2009, 08:54 AM

Both of those sound like logical possibilities.http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/files/images/product_thumbnail/d_1250.jpg
Now that I know the behavior is not typical I'll have to run another manual cycle and really watch/listen. I have a gage at the pressure tank and I'm fairly sure pressure is stable. It seems like the "cam" is overrunning its proper position. I might take the valve off and run it such that I can watch what happens. I'll also back light the tank and look at bed expansion.
BTW, my water is loooking sooooo good. I drained my water heater and did my best to flush it, but the hot is not yet perfect. I may have to flush it again, but the water out of the filtration system is super nice. I'll likely scientifically test it in a couple of days, but the ole sensory tests say A+. BTW BTW (sortof like pps) you think 1.5 MTM in a 10x47 tank is ok?
dm

Physically, 1.5 ft3 of MTM in the 10x47 is "possible", but once we consider the space for a gravel underbedding, and the lift requirements for properly backwashing the bed, I usually counsel against it. You could stretch it to about 1.1ft3 if you want to put some extra media in there ;)

dfm

10-20-2009, 11:12 AM

greg-cws

10-21-2009, 05:32 PM

On the MTM tank.
I have 16 lbs. garnet underbedding.
I have a 0.25gpm BLFC on a Fleck 7000.
I don't know the BWFC but it seems much less than the resin tank.
With backlighting I see very little media expansion when it back washes.
Would you recommend sucking some of the MTM out?

Open the drain elbow assembly, remove the BWFC and run a backwash - see if it lifts the MTM more. We need a good vigorous on that MTM to keep it viable and functional. Look at the outside rim of the BWFC. It will indicate a flow rate - let me know.

On the resin tank.
I have 16 lbs. gravel underbedding.
I have a Fleck 6600 on the resin tank and I don't know the BWFC, but the backwash is vigorous. It takes 60 seconds to pull the resin up to the top distributor basket.

The BWFC on the 660 is different, it is contained under a screw-in retainer in the drain fitting receiver on the 6600. remove it and check the flow rate. There are two ways to reduce your flow rate...buy a different BWFC, or install a ball-valve on the drain piping. In a case like yours, I'd seriously recommend the valve. You can adjust the drain valve to ant flow rate you want, putting you in total control.

dfm

10-21-2009, 06:57 PM

You da man! Thanks. I may have the flu! :(
I'll keep you updated!
David

Open the drain elbow assembly, remove the BWFC and run a backwash - see if it lifts the MTM more. We need a good vigorous on that MTM to keep it viable and functional. Look at the outside rim of the BWFC. It will indicate a flow rate - let me know.

The BWFC on the 660 is different, it is contained under a screw-in retainer in the drain fitting receiver on the 6600. remove it and check the flow rate. There are two ways to reduce your flow rate...buy a different BWFC, or install a ball-valve on the drain piping. In a case like yours, I'd seriously recommend the valve. You can adjust the drain valve to ant flow rate you want, putting you in total control.

dfm

10-23-2009, 09:10 AM

MTM Fleck 7000 tank updates:
From floor to bed top is about 34-35 inches (10x47 tank, 1.5 cu feet media).
I removed a rubber disk with a hole in it from the backflow assembly (120/79/F).
When I ran a backwash with the disk out the media rose to upper basket in about 60 seconds or less and flow was reduced 90%. I cut a wedge out of the rubber disk and reinserted it and the media rose to basket in about two or three minutes and flow was reduced a bit but stayed pretty strong. Any thoughts? Should I remove the upper basket and pump out some media? Thanks! Oh, I think a ball-valve is the way to go for the softener tank, cool idea. I'll have to go to Lowes and see what I can put together.

Open the drain elbow assembly, remove the BWFC and run a backwash - see if it lifts the MTM more. We need a good vigorous on that MTM to keep it viable and functional. Look at the outside rim of the BWFC. It will indicate a flow rate - let me know.

The BWFC on the 660 is different, it is contained under a screw-in retainer in the drain fitting receiver on the 6600. remove it and check the flow rate. There are two ways to reduce your flow rate...buy a different BWFC, or install a ball-valve on the drain piping. In a case like yours, I'd seriously recommend the valve. You can adjust the drain valve to ant flow rate you want, putting you in total control.

Hub67

10-23-2009, 01:29 PM

10ppm Iron is a walk in the park with our Water DOG Works Iron Hunter!

We can oxidize tremendous amounts of Iron, Manganese & H2S. Simply use a backwashing filter afterwards to catch the parts, pieces & chunks!

dfm

11-01-2009, 11:51 AM

I've been testing at around .15ppm iron so I decided to remove the modified backwash disk and upper basket from my MTM and perform a backwash. I was surprised to find none of the MTM media ejected during backwash. So my current worry is that I have too much MTM in my tank, but at least I now have maximum backwash.

As per your suggestion Greg I installed a flow control on the backwash of my resin tank and tweaked it until I had the most bed expansion I could get without the media reaching the upper basket. With 1.5 cubic feet in the 10x47 tank there's not much bed expansion going on, but perhaps with the low density of the resin that doesn't matter so much?

Current concerns:
Too much MTM? (no backwash flow restriction, no upper basket)
Too much Purolite resin? (flow control on backwash, minimal bed expansion)

Thanks so much!
David

I am

MTM Fleck 7000 tank updates:
From floor to bed top is about 34-35 inches (10x47 tank, 1.5 cu feet media).
I removed a rubber disk with a hole in it from the backflow assembly (120/79/F).
When I ran a backwash with the disk out the media rose to upper basket in about 60 seconds or less and flow was reduced 90%. I cut a wedge out of the rubber disk and reinserted it and the media rose to basket in about two or three minutes and flow was reduced a bit but stayed pretty strong. Any thoughts? Should I remove the upper basket and pump out some media? Thanks! Oh, I think a ball-valve is the way to go for the softener tank, cool idea. I'll have to go to Lowes and see what I can put together.